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Self-Realization, Awakening, & Enlightenment?

Diana: Is it unfair to ask, as I have not read your book, what do you think is Self-realization, or are you going to tell me to read the book?

[Laughter]

Stephen: That’s the question I wrote in the book, The Outrageous Myths of Enlightenment, “What are self-realization, awakening, liberation and enlightenment?” So that’s the question most people have who are seeking spiritually.

Diana: So, can I ask you now?

Stephen: Well, I can ask you that question and we can talk about it. If you’re interested, then we can see. What you may find is that what you’re seeking, what self-realization is, what awakening is, what enlightenment is—it’s what you already are. You can hear this and say, okay, I agree—but it’s conceptual.

Diana: Right.

Stephen: When you are really suffering, you’re at the end of your rope and you feel you can’t take it anymore, then you find out. That was my experience. I don’t know if that’s necessary.  You just can’t take it anymore. You can’t take living as a separate person and you’re ready to kill yourself—I was at certain points.

Then you’ll find out what self-realization is, what awakening is, and what enlightenment is—you’ll find out there isn’t any. It’s seen there is no such thing as enlightenment, and there is no person who can be enlightened. There’s no separate entity.

All suffering comes out of this sense of being separate. You’re a separate person and you’re not good enough, there’s something wrong with you—so you’re suffering. When it gets to a certain point the realization can happen that all suffering stems from this sense of being separate—a separate person who has to make her own way in the world, and it’s not easy. So we turn to different approaches, and we go down different paths in our life. Because it doesn’t feel quite right, something feels wrong. There’s the sense that something is wrong with me. Something is wrong with me, and something is wrong with the world.

The ancient traditions point to the fact that at the root of all suffering is the sense of being separate—separate from our fellow man, separate from God, separate from everything. Being a separate entity and having to fight, struggle, kick and scratch our way through this life. It’s not easy living like that. So we read about the fact that the end of spiritual seeking and psychological suffering comes when we see we’re not separate, there is no separate person here.

Diana: But how do you see that? The only way to see that is to experience it.

Stephen: Well, the spiritual literature says that at the root of suffering is this sense of being a separate person, and we notice that in our own experience. We notice, well, let me see if it’s true in my own experience—is my suffering happening when I feel I’m separate? In other words we look into what’s happening when we’re suffering.

Lenny: What is your experience? Without reading about it—just your personal experience.

Stephen: My experience of suffering?

Lenny: Yes, without talking about what you read. What is your personal experience?

Stephen: The suffering brought me to the point where I was willing to look into some fundamental questions. The fundamental questions are—what am I? Is there a separate entity here? The spiritual traditions say there is no separate entity here, and the sense of being a separate person is at the root of all suffering. So the suggestion is to look in your own experience and see if that’s true. Is there any separate entity here?

Lenny: And what did you find out?

Stephen: For me the suggestion was to look and see if there’s any separate entity here. So you question that, and you say who do I feel I am? Who is Stephen? Who is Lenny? Who am I? When you say, Lenny, what do you mean?

Lenny: I’m asking about you.

Stephen: Right, well, I don’t want this to be only about me. This was beneficial for me so I want you to look, too—because this is not only about me and my experience. It’s about both of us—it’s about all of us.

When I looked in my experience and asked who is Stephen? Who do I feel I am? I felt I was in control. I am the controller of Stephen’s life. If you ask me, who is Stephen? I am the one who’s in control of Stephen and his life. I’m in control of his thoughts and I’m responsible for his thoughts. I’m in control of his feelings, his sensations, his relationships, his career—Stephen. I’m the one who’s in control of making sure my life experience works out. Making sure I’m happy most of the time, and I avoid sadness. That’s who I felt I was. That’s the sense of ego, the sense of being a separate, controlling entity, a separate person who must take control of his life experience.

Ramana suggests this and many others—find out who you are. Who am I? This was the process for me. Looking into and questioning, who is Stephen? I could feel an energy here in the chest and stomach. It’s an uncomfortable energy. It’s an energy of resistance. Resisting what I don’t like, and trying to grasp onto what I do like. So it’s a sense and a belief that I’m in control of my experience. I’m a separate entity who can control his own experience—control his thoughts, his feelings, sensations, actions, relationships, and career—the whole package. So this is who I felt I was.

So now I’m questioning that. What is this energy of resistance? What is it based on? Is there any separate, controlling entity here? Is there any separate person here? The ancient traditions say there isn’t one. They say if you see there isn’t a separate entity here, and all is one, then there’s a sense of relief that happens.

This resistance that I felt I was, this ego, you can feel it in your stomach, in your chest, in your neck. It’s a sense of resistance to what is. You want to resist the unpleasant experiences, and grasp onto the pleasant. You want the good, and you don’t want the bad. And there’s a ‘me’ here, an ego who wants to do that.

If there’s a belief that there’s a separate person here who can control his experience, then it’s questioned. We look and we see, well, if there is an ego, if there is a separate entity here who can exercise control, if this ego I believe I am has any power, then it should be able to exercise control, right? It should be able to control thoughts, feelings, sensations, and actions. If there is any separate, controlling entity, any separate ego here, it should be able to take control of his life, shouldn’t it?

Either I’m in control or I’m not. It’s black and white, there’s no gray. There isn’t just a little bit of control. If there’s one little part you’re not in control, then there is no control. Either there is a controlling entity or person here or there isn’t. It’s not a little bit. It’s not that I can control this, but I can’t control that.

So I’m looking into this uncomfortable energy of resistance which is the ego, and I’m questioning it. Does it have any substance? Is it real? Or is it just based on a belief? If it’s real, I should be able to exercise control, shouldn’t I? If the ego, this sense of being a separate person has any power then I should be able to exercise control over thoughts, shouldn’t I?—and feelings, sensations, actions, behavior, all of that. If I am a separate, controlling entity, shouldn’t I be able to exercise control over my experience? Yes?

So I sit here and I notice thoughts just happen. Try to take control of your thoughts—go ahead and do it. You may be successful for a short period of time, and then something will come in and disturb that seemingly successful period of control. So I’m sitting here and I’m questioning this ego. Can I control thoughts? No. Why would you ever have a negative thought at all? If you could control your thoughts, take control right now, and have only positive thoughts. What are you waiting for? Why would you wait? Thoughts happen. If you don’t believe that, then go ahead and take control of your thoughts. Good luck.

So I notice in my own experience there’s no separate entity here creating or controlling thoughts—thoughts happen! Positive thoughts, negative thoughts, whatever you want to call them, they just happen. Where do they come from? I don’t know. Is Stephen controlling any thoughts? I tried for quite a while to have only positive thoughts, it doesn’t work. So there’s no separate ego here controlling thoughts.

What about feelings?—happiness, sadness or any feeling. If there’s a separate entity here who can exercise control, then I’ll be able to control my feelings, and have only joy and happiness, and never have anger or sadness. So let’s see if I can exercise control. If there is an ego here, a separate entity with any capacity to control, surely it can exercise control. Then why am I waiting? Why don’t I go ahead and have only joy all the time? So, happiness and sadness, joy and anger—feelings just arise, they just happen. If you don’t believe that, then take control of your feelings now! What are you waiting for? Don’t wait until next week. So I found there is no separate entity who can control thoughts. There’s no separate entity who can control feelings.

What about sensations in the body? I want only pleasure, I don’t want pain. Why would I want pain? Is there any separate entity who can exercise control over sensations? If there is, why are we waiting? Why don’t we exercise control now and have only pleasure? Would you ever have pain if you had control over the sensations in your body? Why would you choose pain?

There are thoughts, feelings, and sensations—that’s the general experience we humans have. Then there are actions and behaviors. And we ask, what about my behavior or my actions? If there is any separate, controlling entity here, I should be able to control my behavior and actions. My actions and behavior should only be loving and kind! I should be loving, kind and peaceful all the time. I should never be angry or selfish. I should never have any negative behavior or actions. I should never yell at anyone. I should always be thoughtful and generous, loving, peaceful, kind, and compassionate—if I’m in control, right?

So, we look for a controlling entity because we believe there is a separate person who can exercise control. This is the energy you feel in your stomach and chest. This is the energy of resistance and trying to control. You can feel it, it’s uncomfortable. So what is it trying to control? It’s trying to control thoughts, feelings, sensations, actions and behaviors. Isn’t that the human experience in general? We have thoughts, feelings, sensations, actions, and behaviors.

Diana: The suffering is resisting.

Stephen: Yes. So we notice at the root of psychological suffering, and we feel it in our own experience, is this energy of resistance—I like this, I don’t like that, and trying to control.

Lenny: I was thinking it’s also about how we are taught to see what is good and what is bad. Like pain is bad. This is how we’re taught, it’s not because we choose to see things that way.

Diana: It’s conditioning.

Lenny: It’s conditioning. Because if you are able to accept everything the way it is, there is no more suffering. There’s no more resistance.

Stephen: We want to get to the root of this, because the way you put it, there’s one key we want to focus on, you said, “If you are able to accept,” if Lenny is able to accept, if Diana is able to accept.

Lenny: If you surrender.

Stephen: If YOU surrender! We want to look into this YOU, Lenny. Is Lenny able to accept, is Jason able to accept, is Charles able to accept, is Diana able to accept, is Stephen able to accept? Who is this you that is able to accept?

Lenny: It’s an image of what I think I am.

Stephen: Can the image you have of yourself do anything at all? This makes it personal when you look in your own experience and ask, is Lenny able to control? We want to get to the root of this. So in this investigation of ‘who am I?’ we notice this resistance, this ego. We question it and recognize that everything is happening—thoughts, feelings, sensations, actions—it’s all happening. Even resistance is just happening. This uncomfortable energy is just happening. I’m not doing that, it’s just happening.

I thought I was this Stephen character, a controlling entity. In this investigation, this observation, looking into this it’s seen there’s no one here. How do I see this? Because I thought I was controlling thoughts. I thought Stephen was in control of thoughts, and it’s seen that thoughts just arise, they just happen. So where is Stephen? What’s Stephen’s role in the thinking process if thoughts just arise? Is Stephen the thinker? If I am the thinker, then I should be able to exercise control over thoughts. I can’t do it! So, Stephen is not the thinker. There’s no thinker here. Then you check all of your experience—thoughts, feelings, sensations, actions, behaviors, and you look for the one who’s doing them and you find nothing, no one!

Lenny: You could say Stephen is the body.

Stephen: It’s a label. There is no psychological suffering for the body. It’s only this image of me, Stephen, who can suffer psychologically. The resistance comes about because of the assumption based on the unexamined belief in the existence of a separate entity, a separate ego called, Stephen.

When it’s seen there’s no Stephen here, and thoughts happen, feelings happen, sensations happen, actions happen. There’s no Stephen here. I am not the separate entity I thought I was, so, what am I? My entire life that’s who I thought I was, this energy of resistance. I’m the one who’s in control, and it’s seen I am not that, there’s nothing here, there’s nothing here!

I’ve seen that through this investigation. And I’ve confirmed it by trying to exercise control. You say, okay, I don’t find any controlling entity here, but maybe I’ve overlooked it. So I’m going to make this investigation practical, and ask can I exercise control? If there’s an entity here in each of us that has any separate power, surely it can exercise that power! So I’m making this investigation practical.

Diana: I understand. I understand the thoroughness of the investigation. Now is that something you’ve experienced?—the non-existence of the controlling entity? Like the way you experience pleasure? Or the way the form has experienced pleasure or pain. It was helpful for me to hear your presentation of the investigation, I enjoyed that. But my next question is have you had an experience, because you are still in form. So this form has or has not had the experience of no-separation?

Stephen: The first part of the investigation is based on looking into this separate entity.

Diana: I understood that, and it’s clear.

Stephen: The second part will answer your question. All my life I thought I was this ego.

Diana: Right, right, right.

Stephen: It’s clearly seen there’s no one here.

Diana: Right, I understood that totally.

Stephen: The next question is, if I am not the ego I thought I was my entire life, then what am I?

Diana: Okay, that’s still not answering my question, that’s in between.

Stephen: We’ll get there.

Diana: Okay.

Stephen: What I am is the peace you’re talking about, it is the absence of separation you’re talking about—what I am. Seeing through what I am not, the sense of separation falls away.

Diana: Right.

Stephen: What’s left? What’s left is what’s always been here.

Diana: Right.

Stephen: This will answer your question, stay with me. I know what you mean. Just go along with me. Because there is no one who experiences the absence of separation. There’s no one to experience the bliss. There’s no one to experience the peace. See, it’s not for a someone! The question, ‘have you experienced the absence of separation,’ is based on a premise that there is someone here to experience the absence of separation—see how that doesn’t work? The question comes from the perspective of a person who wants to...

Diana: No, it comes from, well, we are still in form here.

Stephen: There is no one in form. The question is based on the premise that there’s a person here, and there are separate forms. That’s going through the mind. There’s no separation until you think, until the intellect is exercised.

I want to talk about what we are. Your questions are all going through the mind. There’s no separate form. There’s no separate person who experiences the absence of ego. There’s no separate person who experiences bliss. There’s no separate person who can be enlightened. There’s no separate person. There’s no separate form! If we remove one atom of hydrogen from the water molecules in your body it will fall apart.

Diana: Yes, but that keeps it together, that one molecule.

Stephen: Without thought there is no separate form. We’re going through the mind and trying to see that all is one, and the mind is the tool of division.

Diana: Right.

Stephen: We’re using the tool of division to understand that all is one. We can’t do it. And to experience oneness—can’t do it. The mind is the tool of division, the tool of separation, the tool that labels me and you, form and spirit. That’s the tool we’re using to see that all is one.

Diana: Do we have a different tool?

Stephen: That’s the tool we humans use. But there is no ‘we’ who has any tool. The universe is expressing itself. I know what you’re talking about and I’m trying to chip away at answering your question.

I want to talk about what we are. My interest is in sharing the fact that it’s possible to be free of spiritual seeking, and free of psychological suffering. I stick with the fundamentals of what we are, and what we are not. Through this recognition there is a relief from the seeking and psychological suffering. Then you’ll have a new perspective on your ideas of experiencing the oneness, and all the ideas that come up. You’ll have a new perspective. It’ll be a perspective from the sense of the fact that you are this awareness that’s watching everything that’s happening, so there’s a new perspective. You’ll notice these concepts and questions that come up are much less important. You’ll see the questions don’t even matter because you’re at peace, and it doesn’t matter what questions come up.

Diana: Questions that come up are like what?

Stephen: The questions are mental noise. They have nothing to do with the peace you really want. There’s the sense if I get my questions answered, then I’ll live in peace. What we really want is this sense of peace, the sense of love, the sense that everything is okay.

We go down different paths, and we have all these questions. We think if I get my questions answered then I’ll have the peace, the sense of relief, the sense that everything is okay. But you’ll notice getting your questions answered has nothing to do with the peace you really want. You’ll notice the questions are noise in the background. But you are the peace.

I want to talk about what we are. There’s no separate entity here, so what am I? There’s one question, who am I? There are two sides to that question. One side is seeing what you are not, which is a separate ego, because that’s at the root of the psychological suffering, the sense of being separate. So it’s seen through this investigation there is no separate entity here. That’s seeing what I am not.

If I’m not this separate person, this separate entity, then what am I? What is it about us that’s always here and has always been here? It’s never changed—it’s always been witnessing, watching. It’s this awareness, this consciousness.

This consciousness that we are has always been here. This consciousness that I am watches thoughts come up, it witnesses questions that come up. It witnesses the question, who am I? It witnesses the silence when there are no questions. It witnesses the happiness and the sadness. It was aware of the body when we were younger, and it’s aware as we get older. The body was young, and it’s getting older, but the consciousness is still the same.

You remember when you were a child, the consciousness looking out at the body, and the body looks different now, but the consciousness is the same as when we were little children. It’s this looking, this seeing. It’s aware of everything in this room right now. It’s aware of these words. It’s aware of the thoughts that are arising in response to these words. You hear these words and then thoughts arise in response—there is awareness of that. This awareness has always been here. It has to be here. It’s primary. It’s essential. It’s what you are in essence. It’s what we all are in essence—this awareness, this witnessing presence that’s just watching. It’s not something you can do—this awareness—it just is. So we notice this seeing is happening, this awareness is happening—it’s just happening. It’s what I am. It’s what you are. And it’s watching all of this. It’s aware of everything in the room—this awareness that we are. It’s very peaceful. There are no problems with it.

Diana: Yes.

Stephen: This is what I am.

Diana: I understand that. I am aware of that. I experience that.

Stephen: It’s pretty nice—this awareness.

Diana: Yes.

Stephen: This is what we are—this awareness. There are no problems. Problems are in thinking, and thinking based on a belief that ‘I’ am in control of my experience. There’s no one here, there’s only awareness. That’s what I am. What do I do? I watch. I just watch.

Diana: What is the content of your everyday experience? Where does that come from?

Stephen: It’s a mystery. Where do thoughts, feelings, and sensations come from?

Diana: No, just the experience.

Stephen: Where does my experience come from?

Diana: Yes, are you waiting for everyday to present its mystery, or what’s your input?

Stephen: Well, we’re all the same in essence. The same is true for you. It’s not possible that we’re different. I didn’t attain anything. No one attains anything.

Diana: I understand that, but I’m asking about your daily experience, what informs your everyday life?

Stephen: What I am is this watching, this witnessing presence is what I am.

Diana: I understand that.

Stephen: So, what does this witnessing presence do? What is the experience of this witnessing presence? It witnesses, it watches.

Diana: But, you do something everyday.

Stephen: I don’t do anything.

Diana: Okay, you don’t do anything.

Stephen: Everything happens. From the perspective of what I am—I watch. That’s what I am. I am this witnessing presence, and so are you.

Diana: Right.

Stephen: That’s what you do, too—you watch. That’s the only thing you’ve ever done, everything else has happened. Do you create the oak trees, and the grass, and the flowers—do you do that?

Diana: No, but that doesn’t help me understand what I’m asking you.

Stephen: Do you create your thoughts?

Diana: More and more I witness my thoughts. But I am asking you a specific question.

Stephen: Everything is happening, that’s my experience. Everything is happening. I’m not doing anything.

Diana: You’re not doing your work, you’re not...

Stephen: Oh, I work. Work happens. See, there’s a difference when it’s seen there’s no one here doing it. You’re asking me what do I do, and from an absolute perspective of what I am—I watch. I watch this Stephen character work, eat, feed the cats, and clean the house.

Diana: So that’s your experience of life?

Stephen: I watch these thoughts happen. I watch these meetings happen. I hear these words happening. Who’s doing it? Who is creating these words?

Diana: So, that’s your experience, you’re not there?

Stephen: I am the witnessing presence, and so are you!

Diana: I understand that. Is that your experience?

Stephen: The question is based on a false premise—what is your experience? There’s no ‘I’. See, that’s the whole point. There’s just consciousness witnessing. If you want to know what I am doing—I am witnessing. That’s what I am.

Diana: So you’re witnessing your pleasure, and witnessing your pain.

Stephen: Yes, and so are you.

Diana: Well, you can’t speak for me because you don’t know. Ask me, please. Theoretically you are assuming that’s my experience, but practically that may not be my experience. That’s what I was trying to ask you, if that’s your experience.  Because I understand conceptually that’s the truth, but whether we are there is another question. If you are telling me that’s what I’m experiencing, I’m going to say, no! That’s a concept. I experience that some of the time, witnessing my experience. But, no, I can’t say that’s my experience.

Jason: You see it when you don’t witness, too, is that what you’re saying? Do you notice when you’re not witnessing?

Diana: What I’m saying is I’m not in that place where I am witnessing all the time.

Jason: How do you know that?

Diana: I feel it! It’s not a matter of knowing—that’s how I know, by feeling. I understand what you are talking about, but my experience is I still experience pleasure and pain. The more I deepen my experience of who I am really, the more I can witness some of it, but it’s not a permanent experience. That’s where I draw my information about who I am, it’s from my experience. That experience is deepening maybe, of who I am, truly. But I’m not there all the time.

Jason: Who sees that you’re not there all the time?

Diana: It’s not a matter of who. I understand the question, but I don’t experience that! I understand all of the concepts you’ve presented so wonderfully.

Jason: You say sometimes you’re witnessing and sometimes you’re not—when you’re not witnessing, you’re noticing that though, aren’t you? You just mentioned sometimes you are, and sometimes you’re not, right?

Diana: When I’m not witnessing, am I aware of that? Yes.

Jason: You must be.

Stephen: I’ll speak from my own experience, I felt that, too. I thought there were flip-flops from witnessing to being identified with the person and the thoughts. I thought there was a flip-flop. What I realized is the witnessing is always happening, this consciousness is always happening, whether the sense of a flip-flop happens or not. There’s always a ‘seeing’ of it. There’s always a witnessing of it. The false sense of a flip-flop was based on a belief that if I know myself as this consciousness, as this awareness, then my experience will meet certain expectations—there will be peace all the time, loving-kindness all the time, there will never be anger, I’ll have only positive thoughts—those were beliefs I had.

Diana: That’s something different.

Stephen: What happened to me for a while, and I thought it was a problem, I thought I was losing this consciousness or this awareness because negative thoughts would arise, and I thought, well, I shouldn’t be having any negative thoughts if I really saw this. If I really knew myself as consciousness I wouldn’t have negative thoughts.

Diana: But everything is in this consciousness including negative thoughts.

Stephen: Right, even the sense of ego.

 Diana: Right.

Stephen: For a while there was a belief that I lost it. Because I believed I shouldn’t be having this disturbing energy, I shouldn’t be having negative thoughts. There should be peaceful, loving kindness all the time. But that’s not what’s being pointed out. What’s being pointed out is what I am. I am the witnessing of it. And the witnessing of it is never gone. The awareness or the consciousness that I am is always witnessing, it’s always watching, it’s always seeing, it’s always aware of the sensations in the body, it’s always aware. It’s what I am in essence, it’s primary.

If there is no awareness or consciousness, there can’t be any belief in a flip-flop, there can’t be any uncomfortable energy—there can’t be any sensations without this awareness. For a while I had these beliefs that if I really knew that I am this awareness, then my experience—thoughts, feelings, sensations and all of that would meet these certain criteria. If I wasn’t happy, peaceful, blissful, calm, loving and kind all the time, then I lost it. And it’s seen that what I am is the witnessing presence that’s watching my experience go from loving, peaceful and kind, and then flipping to the ugliness of the ego. But I was always there watching it.

Diana: The ego is not even ugly. It’s just different colors of the same consciousness. That’s a judgment

Stephen: Yes, right. I’m using words to describe the experience.

Lenny: We can say it’s aliveness. All those things happen, judging, the pain, all those things happen.

Charles: Well, I really get that thoughts happen. I’m getting them almost constantly and there’s awareness of them, and the emotions, too. But my actions—I hit a wall with that because my actions are more concrete.

Stephen: Right, that’s very common. If you follow your actions back, what usually happens prior to an action? In most cases, unless it’s a reflex, aren’t most actions preceded by thoughts, feelings, or sensations? Someone may say something about Charles and you get offended by it. So a response happens and maybe you strike back. And you say, well, I should be in control of my actions. But isn’t it true that actions are preceded by thoughts, feelings and sensations? And then an action follows—isn’t that the case?

Charles: Well, what about other decisions you think out, like whether I should loan money to someone, or whether I should put a new roof on the house, or buy a new car—things like that. These are things you think out rationally, supposedly, and then you take action.

Stephen: Right, so if you follow any action, even an action like that, making a decision to put a new roof on the house, or should I buy a new car? If you follow it back, a thought or a series of thoughts happen, and an action follows. Isn’t that the case? Every action that happens in my experience, other than a biological reflex, involves thought—thoughts happen and then actions follow. So where is the actor? Where’s the thinker? Is there any entity creating the thoughts? Is there any actor creating the actions? Or is thinking happening, and acting happening? It seems to me that everything is happening, even the actions. There’s nothing that isn’t simply happening.

Charles: It’s more difficult to avoid psychological pain during the decision making process when you have to make a decision that affects someone else. It seems you can’t avoid the psychological pain that’s there.

Stephen: Well, what if you see there’s no Charles? There’s no separate Charles creating the thoughts. There’s no separate Charles creating the feelings. There’s no separate Charles creating the sensations. There’s no separate Charles creating the actions. So, what is Charles’ role in the decision making process? What is Charles’ role?

Is there any Charles there to take credit if things work out well for everyone involved? Is there any Charles there to take the blame if things don’t work out well? Is there any Charles there? Is there any Charles there who can suffer? Do you see how the recognition that there is no separate Charles there resolves all psychological suffering, and spiritual seeking? All psychological suffering and spiritual seeking are from the point of view of a separate Charles. What if there is no Charles? If you are not Charles, then what are you? You are the witnessing presence of Charles and all the actions that happen. That’s who I am—who you are. There’s no separate entity there.

Lenny: This is still a belief, am I right? It’s still a belief?

Stephen: What is still a belief?

Lenny: That you are awareness.

Diana: Or there’s no one there.

Lenny: It’s still a belief. It’s not...

Diana: …an experience.

Lenny: Right, it’s not an experience. It’s something you got through the mind using the mind as a tool and it’s still a belief, it’s not an experience.

Diana: What drives your actions? People may have a thought to take a certain action. All sorts of thoughts come to mind, and there’s no one there, according to what I understand, and then you act on the thoughts. What makes the discernment there between taking certain actions like should I climb up a tree or should I go to work today? There are many choices. If no one is there, then thoughts happen and there is action and nobody is responsible. That is my question, what drives the actions and choices in your life?

Stephen: The same thing that drives you. What’s the source of the universe? What’s the source of an oak tree?

Lenny: I don’t know?

Stephen: It’s a mystery.

Diana: Yes, but I can’t talk about something I don’t experience. I’m not experiencing that mystery. I’m experiencing the beginning of the day...

Lenny: Even ‘mystery’ is a concept.

Stephen: Everything we’re talking about is a concept in order to put it into words. If we see it’s all concepts, then you are free of the concepts.

Diana: No, you can’t see unless you experience it.

Lenny: Exactly.

Diana: Unless you experience something, you can’t really see it. It can help to see the concepts.

Stephen: Okay, well, I’ll stick to the basics because there are a lot of different questions that arise, and for me they were all resolved. There are an infinite number of questions we can ask.

Diana: That’s why I’m asking you a specific personal question that might help us understand. What drives your actions and choices during your day? As much as you know the concept there is no Stephen, and you are watching everything, still everyday you are involved in this form, and you are participating in various activities. So I am asking you, what determines your choices in your daily experience?

Stephen: How would I know? It’s a mystery. What makes an oak tree an oak tree?

Diana: I think you do know, because you must have an experience.

Stephen: The only experience I can speak of is that I am witnessing.

Diana: That’s your only experience.

Stephen: That’s my experience.

Diana: So you are completely detached from everything that’s happening?

Stephen: No! There’s no one here who’s detached! From the perspective of a separate me, which is a false premise, all these questions arise. Like what is your experience? There’s just witnessing! I’m trying to answer a question based on a false premise.

Diana: So you can’t answer because you are so identified with awareness, who you truly are.

Stephen: No! There’s no one who’s identified. There’s just one—consciousness. You say, answer my question! And the question is, what time is purple? I can’t answer that question because it’s based on a false premise! Regarding your other questions the false premise is there is some separate entity who has an experience. Some separate entity who can be identified or detached. My experience is I am this witnessing presence watching the show, and the show happens.

Diana: You’re watching the show. So how do you answer his question as far as making choices that involve other people?

Stephen: This witnessing presence that I am...

Diana: But he’s not there. He’s not experiencing what you’re experiencing.

Stephen: I can only answer from my own perspective, and the realization that we’re all the same in essence.

Diana: So the moment we understand theoretically that we are all witnessing…

Stephen: There are two sides to it. What you are is the witnessing presence, and you are not a separate entity.

Diana: Right, so the moment I understand that fully...

Stephen: We could say, ‘see’ that.

Diana: See that fully, then I’m free of suffering and then...

Stephen: There’s a new perspective, I’ll put it that way. Because if I believe that I am Stephen...

Diana: I understand that thoroughly. So if I understand that thoroughly I’ll be free of suffering and I’ll be self-realized?

Stephen: There’s no one who’s self-realized!

Diana: Well, I have to ask the question from where I am. I mean the fact that Stephen is not here is your experience, but it’s not mine.

Stephen: Then my suggestion to you is the same that was made to me, and the suggestion is to look and see if you are a separate entity. Is there a separate Diana there?

Diana: Yeah, I asked that question many times.

Stephen: That’s what I suggest because if it’s seen in your own experience—who is this Diana you feel you are? Who is this? Who is Diana really? Who is it that I feel I am. I felt I was the disturbing energy of resistance I talked about earlier. Then it’s my own personal investigation. It’s not like opening Ramana’s book or Krishnamurti’s book, and repeating the question, who am I? Who am I? Who am I?

The suffering and seeking brought me to the point where I felt I trusted what they were saying, but it wasn’t my experience so I’m going to find out. The suffering brings you to the point where you look and say, what is this that I am? I felt this disturbing energy and I didn’t like it. So what is this energy? And it’s realized it’s the sense of being in control, the sense of being a separate person. So is there any control? And it’s just seen, no!

This separate entity I thought I was, this disturbing energy was based on a belief, and it’s creating all of my suffering. So I look and see there’s nothing here but a disturbing energy and a belief that I am in control, I am a separate, controlling entity.

So I question that and make it practical—can I control my experience? No! Thoughts arise. Feelings arise. Sensations arise. Actions happen. There’s no one here! There’s no one here controlling anything. So what am I? My entire life I thought I was this controlling entity. I am not that. So, what am I? I am this consciousness. And then there’s a sense of relief, ahhh. What a relief!

Now, it’s like Stephen’s life is on television. I can turn the television on and watch Stephen’s life just happening. Either Stephen is a nice, kind, sweet guy or he’s not. There’s no separate entity here doing it. Whatever’s happening is happening. Consciousness is watching.

I’ve always been this watching. There was no suffering when I was a child until this ego developed. From the time we’re about two years old, and it gets bigger and bigger, stronger, heavier and more painful. This sense of ego, this sense of being separate is at the root of the suffering. We look and see there’s nothing here. So there’s a sense of relief as the resistance drops away. What’s left? This witnessing, this watching that’s always been here. It was here before the development of the ego in the human experience, it’s here during the expression of the ego in the human experience, and it’s here after—this witnessing.

That’s why you’ll hear this is not an attainment because you haven’t attained this consciousness that you are. The peace we want is this consciousness that we are. Even as this activity and movement is happening here, my hands and arms are flailing about, I’m speaking loudly and I appear quite animated, consciousness is watching it! It doesn’t matter what’s happening here. I’m not doing it. There’s no separate entity here. No one is doing anything. You think you’re doing things! You’re doing nothing! Everything is happening.

I don’t care what your experience is. You think you’re doing things, there’s no one there doing anything! It’s not possible for you to separate yourself from the rest of creation—Diana is over there and she can exercise control, it’s not possible! Does an oak tree decide it’s going to be an oak tree? And this year it decides it’s not going to produce acorns and it wants to be a pine tree! That is absurd!

The capacity for thought has developed in the human experience, and the thought ‘I’ am in control arose in the human experience and it’s believed. This is the fall from grace. Eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil—I know good from evil, I know right from wrong. It’s the intellect, the mind.

The oak tree doesn’t know good from evil—it just is. It is life itself and you are, too! But you have the capacity for thought. The thought ‘I’ arose and that’s the birth of the appearance of separation. But there is no separation. Thought does not actually separate the universe into little pieces. The thought ‘I’ has no power!

Just because you think ‘I am’, ‘I am Diana’ doesn’t make it true! It’s just a thought. The thought arises in the human experience, the thought ‘I’, and that is the birth of the appearance of separation, the fall from grace. Being separate from God, knowing good from evil you’ll suffer all the days of your life—it’s right in Genesis. If you believe ‘I am Diana’ you’ll suffer. There’s nothing you can do about it. That’s the human experience. If ‘I am Charles,’ then Charles will suffer.

Charles: When you talk about separation, I get hung up on separation in form. I do see separation here in this room.

Stephen: No you don’t.

Charles: [laughing in disbelief]

Stephen: It’s a thought. Without thought there’s no separation. Until thought arises, (you read J. Krishnamurti, right?)—you can see this in your own experience, until a thought arises there is no separation. If you don’t have the thoughts, “I am Charles, I see Stephen, I see the bottle,” there’s no separation.

So, does thought actually separate the universe into little pieces or does it just appear so? It just appears so, because when there’s no thought, there’s no separation. If we remove one atom of hydrogen from the water molecules in your body, the whole thing falls apart. Nothing is separate. The air in this room goes into your body as you breathe it in, and then you exhale. The air in this room is you. The water in these bottles is you. There’s no separation. Is the water in your body ‘you’, but the water in the bottle is not you? Are you only an atom of hydrogen? It’s just a thought.

All of that is interesting talk. But at the root of psychological suffering is the birth of thought, ‘I’. When the thought ‘I’ arises and the identification with this body and mind happens, that’s the birth of the appearance of suffering—the fall from grace.

Charles: Can someone who has realized this continue to go about their daily life, or do they become a teacher or something? Because it seems if you think in terms of non-separation you couldn’t go through your full day. I drive a delivery truck for a living, and I have to have a sense of separation to do that.

Stephen: Life is happening. Everything is already happening. You’ve never done anything. You’re not doing anything now, and you were never doing anything. If you have the recognition that there is no Charles, Charles is just a concept—life is still happening. Your heart is beating right now—you’re not beating your heart. Your eyes are seeing, Charles is not creating the seeing. Everything is happening, Charles has never done anything. The thoughts arose, “I am Charles. I am the doer.”  Those thoughts arose and are believed to be true. But even then, everything is simply happening.

The mysterious source, whatever it is that creates oak trees, dogs and cats, is creating every thought, feeling, sensation, and action in your experience. It’s the same mysterious source. There’s no separate Charles creating actions and there never was.

You posit that if someone has this recognition they wouldn’t be able to go about their business—their business is already happening! It’s already happening right now! Whatever it is that creates the oak tree is creating everything that’s happening here. There’s no separate entity creating anything. Could Charles separate himself from the mysterious source of all existence, God or Universal Intelligence, and then start doing his own thing? Is that possible? And if so, how did you do it? Having any sort of insight doesn’t change what’s happening. Universal life, this Mysterious Source is already expressing itself. It doesn’t one day begin expressing itself after Charles realizes that Charles doesn’t exist, and from that day, God takes control.

Lenny: But Lenny can choose...

Stephen: Choices happen. Lenny doesn’t do anything! Lenny is an idea. Can an idea do anything? If you want another idea that’s more accurate you could say Universal Intelligence makes choices—it’s a mystery. Choices happen. Is there any individual chooser? If there is a separate chooser, Lenny, why would he ever choose sadness? Why wouldn’t he choose happiness all the time? Could it be there is no separate Lenny there choosing? And the Mysterious Source is expressing itself? Could that be the case? If so, what is Lenny’s role in Lenny’s life? He has no role!

The witnessing presence watches the show and you’re done with trying to control. The uncomfortable sense of ‘I want this, I don’t want that’ is based on a false belief in a separate Lenny. There’s no one there. What’s left for you to do? Nothing! Just watch. Everything is already being done!

The Mysterious Source of all existence, Intelligence Energy is already expressing itself! Every thought, feeling, sensation and action that’s happening here is the same Mysterious Source expressing itself here, here, here, there [referring to everyone in the room] and through the oak tree. Even the sense of ego is an expression of the One Mysterious Source. There’s nothing wrong with anything. Everything is what it is. If there’s a sense of being separate, there’s a sense of being separate. Did the ego create the ego? Everything is just happening.

Oh, wow! I get so fired up sometimes, Jason.

Jason: That’s a good one—can the ego create the ego?

Lenny: But that’s still a belief. Even this is still a belief.

Stephen: When you throw away all of your beliefs, what’s left? What’s left? Throw away all your beliefs, what’s left?

Diana: Nothing. I want some water.

Stephen: Just this witnessing.

Lenny: I’m just playing.

Stephen: Me, too.

Jason: What was helpful for me was when you pointed out the ‘seeing’. And the demonstration you did with seeing different objects, and noticing the ‘seeing’ is always the same. That really helped me. The seeing is always here, just the seeing. Sometimes finding the right word is helpful. It’s this seeing. It’s an action rather than an identity—it’s just happening.

Stephen: Yes.

Jason: There’s this seeing. That’s what’s happening—seeing. What I found is even when I’m at my most contracted, dense state, I see the contracted density perfectly—I don’t like that state, and I see the disliking of it. When I’m happy, I see happiness with as much clarity as I see the contracted density.

Stephen: Yes.

Jason: The seeing is happening all the time.

Stephen: Yes, yes, that’s it!

Jason: Regardless of what’s being seen. I can’t make the seeing stop. I don’t remember making it begin.

Stephen: Right, yes.

Jason: It’s always here.

Stephen: Yes, that’s it.

Jason: The seeing, presence-awareness, or witnessing—it just happens.

Stephen: Yes, that’s it.

Lenny: Is that a detachment from what is happening?

Stephen: No!

Jason: It’s just happening. The seeing is impersonal. I’m not saying Jason is seeing. The seeing is seeing Jason! It’s seeing everything.

Stephen: Yes.

Jason: It sees the good, it sees the bad.

Stephen: Yes. The seeing is neither detached, nor attached. It has nothing to do with any relative experience—it just is. It doesn’t matter what is seen. Seeing is happening.

Diana: Anyway, I guess it’s not helping me see right now, but it’s okay. I don’t have to see that.

Stephen: Okay, I have more to say, but I don’t want you to yell at me.

[laughter]

Diana: Right, but somehow in this moment it’s not helping me, and that’s okay. Not everybody sees, and that’s okay. Not everybody at all times has to see. Right now I don’t see. I’m okay with that.

Jason: You’re saying you don’t see, but are you seeing that?

Diana: I’m seeing that I’m not seeing, and I’m okay with it.

Jason: But you’re seeing it?

Stephen: Even seeing that you’re not seeing is seeing.

Diana: I don’t need to see that right now! It’s okay. I’m okay with this tonight.

[laughter]

Stephen: Okay.

Diana: I don’t have to see. 

Jason: My point is that even when you see that you don’t see something, you’re still ‘seeing’. The seeing is always here.

Diana: I don’t know. Right now I don’t need to see.

Jason: But you are seeing.

Diana: I just don’t need to see! 

Jason: But you are. You are seeing.

Diana: Well, that’s what you’re saying and telling me. But I’m okay with not seeing right now. I am at peace with it.

Jason: I think you are seeing.

[laughter]

Stephen: That’s alright.

Diana: I’m okay with not seeing tonight.

[laughter]

Stephen: Yes, everything is okay.

Diana: Yes, thank you, very much.

Charles: When you said it was always here I remembered myself in front of my house when I was a child, and it does seem like it was the same seer. I wasn’t any younger (the seeing).

Jason: Right. The intellect changes, and your body changes, and your emotions change, but I feel the same. I still feel like I did when I was four years old (the seeing) as I do now.

Charles: Yes.

Stephen: You remember yourself as a child walking to school. You recall this seeing was happening, and this is the same seeing now! It’s seeing a different body, different experiences, different thoughts, different ideas, but the seeing is the same! So this is what’s being pointed out, it’s what I am. It doesn’t change.

It’s the seeing, the consciousness, the awareness. You know it experientially so it doesn’t matter which word we use. It’s seeing different things. This is what we are—this consciousness. As we get older the seeing will be the same. We may end up in nursing homes, but the seeing will be the same!

Jason: The seeing doesn’t age.

Stephen: It’s timeless.

Jason: It’s pure, clear consciousness.

Stephen: So this is what we are, we are eternal life, this witnessing presence—it’s timeless.

◊

This Dialogue is from the book:
Dogs, Cats & Dreams of Spiritual Awakening

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